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Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc. Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.06.30 10:04:00 -
[1]
OP has excellent insight.
Originally by: Chribba Don't forget they will double the starting ISK if you send it to CCP when creating a char.
The DEV scamming = best scamming?
Slade
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Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc. Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.06.30 11:15:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Gariuys Probably not gonna happen, although I don't think it would be that bad a change really. But I am quite interested in why they implemented something like this. I doubt it was hard to do, but I als doubt that this was done purely to give us SP for the downtime.
The ability to replace skillpoints after CCP decides to remove them is, at the least, the second best reason to develop such a system. That or they are going to allow SP microtransactions
Slade
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Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc. Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.06.30 12:55:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Taedrin
Or they could be using it for future gifts to the players or incentives to resubscribe your account. Perhaps also an incentive to recruit more players to the game too. There are a dozen different ways this could be used by CCP.
Yes they could and I did not say my list was extensive. But what would be a better gift to players that spent a month or more on learning skills for at least one of their pilots?
Originally by: Gariuys
Oh goody, gonna make this in another SP microtransactions are cool thread? I had so much fun reading the last one. Been out of the loop for a bit so it's really quite usseful in getting too know the new trolls.
/ shakes fist
I be not a troll I have just been here too long
Slade
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Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc. Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.07.01 00:26:00 -
[4]
I am getting a strange feeling that DEVs are in this thread
Originally by: Ranger 1 Right! Because people that are unwilling to plan ahead and work learning skills into their game plan deserve to get a boost to their attribute scores instantly and for free because...
...
... because why again exactly?
Because having that system implemented in the first place was a bad decision to begin with.
Originally by: Spades Slick
That's funny because my toon's only 3 months old. No, wait, 2 and a half.
Yeah, I'm a 'bitter vet', all right.
I'm probably younger than any of you.
EDIT: Heh, heh, oops. That probably threw off your little rhetorical bull****. You wanna actually address my points, or do you just want to make personal attacks to try to undermine my position without actually talking about what I have to say?
Yet you speak of Command ships, specialized skill sets, and other things a two month old character would not typically have. Just saying.
But seriously your logic is pretty fail. And yes I will stick purely with the ad hominem since that is about the only response I feel your opinions warrant.
Slade
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Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc. Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.07.01 13:05:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Placebo Addict Proper use of learning skills allows the intelligent to stand out in the crowd.
Removal of learning skills is a wholeheartedly foolish idea.
And knowing how to fit and fly the ship, follow FC commands, being in fleet when you could be grubbing isk, is no longer the best reason to stand out in a crowd? Why the **** should superfluous skills, such as learning skills have anything to do with how you stand out in a fleet or in your corp/alliance?
The only difference learning skills really make, in the beginning, is they allow vets to skill their alts faster then a new player starting the game at the same time.
Also, a majority of the words that get filtered through new players heads are, 'train the learning skills as fast as possible' and 'train them as you feel inclined to train them', that is horrible in the sense of new player retention. If you do not see that you are nothing but a jaded mmo vet.
Originally by: Bryg Philomena
Originally by: Slade Trillgon
Originally by: Gariuys Probably not gonna happen, although I don't think it would be that bad a change really. But I am quite interested in why they implemented something like this. I doubt it was hard to do, but I als doubt that this was done purely to give us SP for the downtime.
The ability to replace skillpoints after CCP decides to remove them is, at the least, the second best reason to develop such a system. That or they are going to allow SP microtransactions
Slade
Perhaps it was in place before, possibly in the event of a bug removing SP?
In a later post I siad my list was not exhaustive
Originally by: Furb Killer
Anyone who thinks learning skills are intelectually challenging probably also thinks deciding which M&Ms to eat first is challenging.
and exactly.
Slade
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Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc. Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.07.01 21:35:00 -
[6]
Fine; remove the learning skills, give no attribute boosts to any pilots, give the trained SP's back to the pilots that trained them, and create/reinstitute +6 to +10 learning implants.
Slade
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Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc. Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.07.01 23:10:00 -
[7]
You say the following.
Originally by: Optical Illusion No. No..
No.
This game is about choices. The fact some people researched and made decissions that would ultimatly speed up there learning from the start, and others didn't, isn't a good reason to remove them.
This is a complex game, and most probably the most expensive one you will ever play. Quit trying to simplify it and turn it into another world of warcraft.
Then you say this.
Originally by: Optical Illusion
Originally by: Slade Trillgon Fine; remove the learning skills, give no attribute boosts to any pilots, give the trained SP's back to the pilots that trained them, and create/reinstitute +6 to +10 learning implants.
Slade
In a way, this theory is flawed.
Training learning skills takes time.
Remove learning skills, Implement +6 - +10 implants. Given the price of +5's is aprox 500 mil (last time i bought a full set, not stating this is the price) +10's would be aprox 15bil a set (based on 100% inflation of price per 1 point gained).
Earning isk ingame = time
Earning 15 bil in isk, based on mission running 4 hours a day = 150 days.
Oops, i got podded, now i have to replace my implants again so i can train at the same speed.
Thats not even taking into account the current issue regarding PvP pilots not using +5's in there main clones head due to cost Vrs. Chance of podding efficiency, and now you are saying we should have learners removed, and implants introduced to make up for it, when a large proportion already dont use the best attribute enhancing implants currently available? Yes, this makes total sence.
So which is it? Do you want pilots to suffer the consequences of their choices or do you want things given to you so you do not have a chance to suffer the consequences of those choices?
The way I see it is if you want a drak EVE universe you will have really slow training times and if you want to have faster training times then you can pay for the implants and suffer the consequences if you get podded. But no, some of you all want to keep their prescious skill training 'advantage' because you think it is truly some significant and tactical advantage that adds depth to the game, and you no wanna give it up
Slade
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Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc. Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.07.01 23:44:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Ranger 1
It's not a bad idea at all... IF you provide a better mechanic in it's place.
Still waiting to see it.
Still waiting for a solid reason why the removal of one mechanic instautomatically requires the addititon of a new mechanic to replace it?
Slade
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Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc. Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.07.02 21:45:00 -
[9]
Do you have your learning skills to 4/3?
Do you have your learning skills to 5/4?
These are not questions you will ever hear in a recruitment, a fleet invite, or any other activity one may participate in. Every other skill can be used as a qualifier or disqualifier to something in game. Learning skills can not.
I see in this thread that those that 'seem' to be against the removal of learning skills are not against the removal of them, but are against the removal of learning skills if their own percieved advantage, for whatever level they have trained them to, is not compensated for.
Are they not cute when when they throw temper tantrums
Slade
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Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc. Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.07.02 21:54:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Felix Esperium
So the fact that you can't discriminate based on them means they shouldn't exist? I see...
No; you can discriminate based on them. I provided the example But obviously no one does becuase they provide zero tangible benefit to the game.
Slade
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Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc. Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.07.02 22:22:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 02/07/2010 22:24:54
Originally by: Felix Esperium
They do provide a tangible benefit, which is why everyone wants this ridiculous attribute buff if they are removed.
-When was the last time a gang leader asked you what your frigate construction skill level was? Because this never happens does that mean the skill provides no tangible benefit?- edit: just reread your post and this part fails, my bad.
No worries, it is easy to get discombobulated in these threadnaughts.
They do not provide a tangible benefit to game play, they provide a direct benefite to skill training times of individual pilots. This may be a bridge we may not cross but it is not a breaker for either side of the argument.
I see your side of the argument, I do, but I come from a pen and paper background where in some games all characters started with a maximum number of attribute points that they could distribute anyway they see fit. I do no think that this is a cut and dry argument, but the crux is that a very small percentage of the population actually has LS trained to 5/5 and will actually suffer from any change to the system. I also agree that every choice in EVE should have a consequence, but I think the learnign skills are just a real funny and aggrevating aspect of EVE that really adds little to the game experiance.
I think maybe giving everyone +5 to each attribute and creating higher learning implants would be a good comprimise. Obviously things would need to be tweaked as it has to with drop rates of implants, but that way pilots can choose to train faster and then can truely have consequences for the decision to have their learnign skills attributes so high.
But seriously, any new player coming into this game is going to hear about learning skills. The first skill they want to take to level 5 is when they will be like, gosh I need to train those learning skills cause this is going to take too long and other skills are going to be horrible.
Couple this with the do and do not trian the LS early crowds and the price of the advanced learnign skills, this can be a huge turnoff to a new player, and CCP realizes this. They are a business and they want to find a better way to do this. We just need to help flesh it out.
Slade
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Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc. Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.07.02 23:14:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 02/07/2010 23:23:03 Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 02/07/2010 23:21:12
Originally by: Felix Esperium ok instead of just saying "no" all the time I will throw in an idea.
Remove learning skills, give no free attributes, give learning SP back, implants stay the same.
Tie learning/attribute enhancement into the new player experience. Make the tutorials more involved and have them actually teach you how to play the game and give attribute points upon completion.
Each attribute should come from different sorts of tasks. Just as an example of what I'm thinking you could award a point of perception for fitting your ship, then another for shooting some rats, then another for getting your noob ship blown up (too many noobs are afraid of death) then maybe another for shooting a player ship, then one for surviving a GCC for a full 15 minutes. And so on for the rest of the points, with each task getting slightly more difficult. Willpower points could be gained from using drones or taking a tour of lowsec or something. Charisma points could be gained by trading or joining a player corp. etc...
This way we aren't giving things out for free, new players get attributes without having to train for them, noobs get involved and actually learn the game while "training learning skills", they get out of highsec and experience a little of the variety the game has to offer before becoming mindless slaves to the mining/mission grind, and vets would be mildly inconvenienced but would most likely be able to accomplish all the tasks very quickly and painlessly. Make sure everything can be done from 0.0 too so people aren't forced to make a trip to empire if they don't want to. I would expect the total time of these attribute gathering missions to take maybe a few days to a week for a brand new player.
Unfortunately, this would be very annoying for alts an I haven't yet thought of a good way around that. Maybe someone else has an idea.
Now that is a great idea.
The idiots that do not do the tutorials suffer the consequences until they go back and do them. The new players that get into corps and do them will gain the attribute boni faster then noobs that tend to solo to begin with. Everyone has consequences for their actions and everyone ends having the ability to gain all the attribute boni at differing intervals without a forced skill training down time.
I especially like the idea of increased player based interaction missions to attain the higher attribute boni
EDIT 2: To the alt coment. I would say it would work as intended. Alts are a bane to the game and should be forced to interact as much as possible if they are going to be tolerated.
Slade
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Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc. Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.07.03 05:26:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Felix Esperium Edited by: Felix Esperium on 02/07/2010 23:43:25 Thank you Slade.
After further thinking I agree that alts could just deal with it. Most of the time alts aren't fully learned anyway (unless they are a pretty serious alt) so taking a bit of time and only doing some of the tasks wouldn't be a big issue.
This system would also retain a bit of the decision making of the learning skills as I just demonstrated. No one would be forced to do everything although I imagine those last +1s would become much more attractive than they are now at 12 days training each.
Edit: apparently the word modi****is censored
I will move it to the second post if you would like. Otherwise I recommend, that we flesh out the ideas a bit and then make a proposal in the Features and Ideas section. I really think this proposal has great potential.
Slade
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Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc. Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.07.06 21:28:00 -
[14]
Originally by: democrities to the moderator: shouldn't this entire thread be locked? As it, just as many of the other threads, is nothing more then rumors and speculation presented as if they were fact without so much as an official statement on the part of CCP.
I have speculated once in this thread that I am fairly sure that DEVs are already in this thread
Slade
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Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc. Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.07.07 17:54:00 -
[15]
Originally by: democrities Why is it that the mods have closed every other rumor thread except this one????
Because the best arguments in this thread, for the removal of the learning skills, were made by DEV alts
Slade
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